homosexuality

[victrosity]

its a real issue in life, and im pretty sure we will encounter people who are attracted to the same sex. i have a situation that would be good to discus

your son/daughter is getting married however its to the same sex partner. do you go to their wedding? why/ why not? (this question was discussed on the radio a while agoe with a lot of interesting responces)

do you think there is an issue with homosexuality being accepted in society? (as someones right to choose which sex they are attracted to)

do you think people choose to be attracted to the same gender or is there a genetic predisposition?

should homosexuallity be seen as a worse offense (sin) humanly speaking? why why not? what would god think?

NOTE: this is a sensitive topic to many poeple so make sure you think about what you say before you right it and make sure are humble in your speech

also remember with discussing any topic its not a matter of who is right or who is wrong but a matte of revealing truth or shedding light on an issue. keep that in mind esp discussing this topic.

[annalese]

First of all, i think you should go to godmademegay.com and read the Letter to Louise (if you have time- it's quite long).

Here are my thoughts on the questions you asked....

1. If my son/daughter was getting married to a same sex partner, i would definitely go to their wedding. It would be pretty devastating to be marrying the love of your life, and your parents not showing up on the big day simply because of the gender of your partner. i think parents should be there to support and respect the decisions their children make, and their love for their child shouldn't be based on sexuality.

2. I think there is a huge issue with the acceptance of homosexuality in society.
In some countries, homosexuality is still illegal- In a highly publicized case, two male teenagers, Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni, were hanged in Iran in 2005 reportedly because they had been caught having sex with each other.
People are still being beaten and murdered (hate crimes) for being gay- look up Matthew Sheppard.
I know some churches kick people out if they are gay. In my opinion, if being gay is a sin and you can be kicked out of church because of that, shouldn't everyone be banned from church because everyone sins?
In saying that, as a society we are *heaps* more accepting of homosexuality than about 50 years ago.

3. I don't think people chose to be attracted to the same sex- they just are. however, i don't think it's genetics either, because scientists are still trying to figure out what makes us straight or gay, and a "gay gene" would be too easy (they haven't found one). the amount of people who think they are sick and perverted for being attracted to the same sex shows that people don't choose, otherwise these people would simply choose to be attracted to the opposite sex and everything would be fine.

4. I have no idea what God would think, all we can do is make an educated guess, but I don't think homosexuality should be seen as a sin. If we don't choose to be gay, then obviously God made us that way. Why would God make us gay if being gay is a sin? Basically, the aforementioned Letter to Louise goes really in-depth about this question. So read it. It's great.

That's it. I hope i haven't offended (or confused) anyone.

[Jeremy S]

Wow, great discussion going on here - about a pretty controversial topic!

I read some of that letter Annalese posted (but not all of it yet), and there was some really interesting ideas in there. I'd be the first to admit that I am not not an expert by any means on homosexuality and the Christian faith - but here's a few of my thoughts below.

Personally, I don't think homosexuality is part of God's plans for humans. I think that Bruce Lowe (who writes the Letter to Louise that Annalese linked to) makes some interesting points, but there are a couple of blank spots in his letter.

Bruce states (truthfully) - that we can't take verses or passages out of their context from the whole story of Scripture, and then make conclusions based on them. That would be bad news - and it's a bad way of reading any story. He does go back to the beginning, and talk through the Genesis creation story, explaining how it is a weak argument to say that the creation of Adam & Eve (man & woman) is a basis for the foundation of heterosexuality over homosexuality. He also says that the creation story says nothing about friendship, the virtues of singledom - the creation story is all about the establishment of human society, not about marriage.

I agree (to a point) with this argument, but a glaring omission from this letter is that the Bible does talk about friendship, rest, being single etc. all in positive terms throughout it's big story. There's great friendships in the Bible with Jono & David, Paul & Barnabas, Jesus & Peter (just to name a few). Paul talks about being single in one of his letters to the church in Corinth (1 Corinthians 17). But, to the best of my knowledge, nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality talked about in the same positive terms as these ideas.

The idea of sexuality is a pretty important theme in the Bible - I'd argue that this begins with Adam & Eve, but also is shown through stories through out the Old Testament, Song of Songs is a book dedicated to the idea of love, and Paul and others wrote about this. Even Jesus was asked about marriage. The marriage metaphor is used throughout the Bible to symbolise the intimate relationship between Christ and the church - and it is always a bride - groom relationship.

I also disagree with Bruce's premise that "All people are created in the image of God. The homosexuality of gays and lesbians, created by God, is good and not evil.". Obviously, I agree with the first sentence - the idea of being created in God's image is a massive and powerful idea that I think we need to understand more. But I don't think we can therefore assume that all aspects of people are just how God wanted them to be - we live in a fallen world, and that affects all aspects of us.

Bruce does say, "Some church people who are not accepting of gays and lesbians may say that homosexuality is an aberration of nature and that God doesn't want it, just as he doesn`t want a child with Downs Syndrome because of the limitations it places on that child throughout life. But homosexuals have no physical or mental limitations, and there is nothing about the homosexual that can be defined as an aberration."

Although homosexuality may not be a physical or mental twisting or limitation - could it be a distortion of how God wanted sexuality to be? Someone who was born with a quick temper - they are not physically or mentally limited - but I believe their anger is a distortion of how God wanted them to be. Maybe not a fair comparison - but just a thought.

Ultimately - I don't know. We're all flippin broken, and I think the Bible is a little bit quiet on a lot of these issues. If you read the Bible closely, Sodom wasn't slammed in Genesis for being homosexuals, but Ezekiel talks about how they were punished for their pride, greed and other sins. We live in a broken world, and God wants to reconnect with us through Christ. That is a process, and it can be long.

But heck - I fully agree with what Annalese said about the role of church. If we want to ban people from coming because they're homosexuals, and therefore sinners - then we should ban everyone from coming. Jesus came to hang out with all of us who are broken - and to redeem us and give us new life. Churches should be the place where all people feel comfortable and able to be real with their brokeness, rather than feel judged. We've got a long way to go in this area at RSCC and in our Youth Community, but we can start practicing this and living this out in our lives too.

Seriously - these are just my thoughts. It's not a black and white issue eh, and one that is probably quite controversial, but ultimately there might not be one big answer.

[markfrommarton]

Hi all. Jeremy pointed me to this forum a couple of days ago. Firstly, this blows my mind! People in a church community, discussing real issues! This is almost unheard of in my time! Very cool, long may it continue

This is an interesting topic for me to jump into, and yeah, it is a complicated one. I read some of the Letter to Louise, it was a little too long for me to go right through, but there's some interesting thoughts there. I agree with Jeremy though, there's some real gaps in the writer's reasoning, and some of his Bible interpretation is pretty ordinary and out of context.

He says that nowhere in the Bible is sex before marriage explicitly prohibited, and then also says:

"David and Solomon, beloved and used by God, were polygamists. Solomon had hundreds of mistresses. A pastor is found to have one mistress, and he is quickly gone. (This is not to comment on whether he should or should not be, only to point out the contrast between our concepts and a Biblical example.)"

The passages that talk about David and Solomon were historical books, there intent was mostly to just say what happened. Just because the Bible didn't say it was wrong there doesn't mean it was right, it's silent on it because polygamy's morality or immorality wasn't the point of the story.

In his treatment on Genesis 1&2 later on, he says:

Critics of homosexuality enjoy saying, "The creation story is about Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." Those who say that marriage can be only between a man and a woman argue that God's creation of Adam and Eve as heterosexuals shows that this is what he intended all persons to be; anything else is outside His will and therefore sinful.

And:

The creation story is not, after all, a paradigm about marriage, but rather about the establishment of human society.

Well, yes and no. Actually, I'd say it's both. The most base unit of society is the family. God's purpose in Genesis 1&2 is to create a people and a place for them to live and serve him. God blesses the humans and says "Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it." (1:28) As God is creative, so are we, in His likeness. But how do we fill and subdue/govern this world? The blessing is given, but isn't yet functional. That's the point of Genesis 2. The man is placed in a garden, prepared by God, to work it and tend to it. The word for 'work' also is used for 'worship', in other words, our subduing and governing of this world is a God-given privilege and a form of worship. But how do we fill it? God provides the means for that too, He puts man to sleep and creates a woman from his side. She is like him, but different, a suitable helper/partner in the God ordained subduing and filling. But while we fill and govern this world, it is still God's world, He is still to be at the centre.

Of course, that's all screwed up in Genesis 3 when humans choose their own rules and way and reject God as the centre of their world and place themselves there instead. What happens to the blessing? Is it revoked? No, we still subdue and fill, but the subduing becomes harder with weeds and unproductive ground, and the filling becomes harder with pain and anxiety surrounding childbirth. In otherwords God's order and sovereignty is still intact, but the way it works in our lives becomes messy and broken. That's the essence of sin. It's a brokenness and messiness in our world. God's still in control, but we live in rebellion to him and a lot of stuff isn't how God intended it to be.

That's where I place homosexuality. I don't agree that God makes people gay, although I believe some people (not all gays though) are born with that leaning, it is a genetic thing for them. I don't think God intended it to be that way or caused it anymore than he causes volcanos to erupt and kill people or someone to be born with a birth defect. But God can work good through these things if we turn back to Him and place Him in the centre of our lives again, by accepting and believing that Jesus came and died to fix the root of the problem.

My views on victrosity's questions, it's messy, and I'm not sure there's a one-size-fits-all solution. I think there can be a genetic disposition to homosexuality, but that's not true of all gays, some choose that. Is that Biblically wrong? Well, the writer of the Letter to Louise says that the verse "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, it is an abomination" (Lev 18:22) is simply a religious purity thing. But what about the verses around it forbidding sex with your father's wife or or your brother's wife or with your livestock? If everyone did that society would be a mess, the community of Israel would have never survived. These laws for the stability of society.

God wants what's best for his people, and what's ultimately best is to live in step with Him and keep him at the centre of our lives and world. That's hard in practice though, because the sin nature still messes us up. Whether that's fear and doubt, or bitterness and anger, or homosexual or heterosexual lust, these are the pieces we have to give to Jesus to help rebuild our lives.

Having said all that though, there is no place for churches or Christians to shun homosexuals, especially if they have a genuine desire to connect with God and with others as a community of God. We shouldn't judge or condemn them, but rather connect with them and walk life with them, share in their struggles. That was how Jesus dealt with sinners, and we're all sinners. It's a tough subject, but worth debating. I'd like to think that anyone, including gays, would feel welcome in our church, but unfortunately, I doubt that'd be the case in reality. That's sad and it's worth reflecting on how we deal with that as a church community.

That was a long-winded first post though, sorry. I hope it was worthwhile for the discussion

[patches08]

This is actually a great topic. As its difficult for some people to accept others decisions (meaning choosing to be gay) when their upbringing tells them that others decisions are "wrong". for example in the bible it mentions that god wants christians to be man and wife. we were created so that man and woman were together.

however, that doesnt mean christians should frown upon people who are gay. I dont think god wants us to give the impression we are better than others when were not in some ways.
I do personally say, Im okay with everyone. whoever they are. However, I might not be okay with what they do. but thats for them to decide. and no one should judge them on that.

with what annalese said. a part of the bible comes to mind. where (either woman or man) had sinned. and a crowd had gathered to stone that person. but when jesus heard of this, he approached the group and pointed out the fact that whoever had not sinned could throw the 1st stone..... no stone was thrown..
even though this example is different to the homosexuality topic, I chose to use it because it shows that even though there are others out there that are different from us and have different tastes of sexuality doesnt mean we should look down on them... because they are still human.
and god loves everyone of us christians or not christians. no one is perfect. and uniqueness is a gift god gave us.

on the other point, "down syndrome"..... yes its a pity some people suffer from this illness. but sometimes god gives us particular illnesses to help us become stronger in who we are and who we are in christ.

[Jeremy S]

Hey all,

Interesting discussion going on here, cheers for keeping it alive Courtney. A few quick thoughts from me...

Good point about grace there, using the story of the woman caught in adultery. This is a beautiful example of God's grace shown to all men, and I think is a story that deeply resonates with all of us. The story goes further - here's what is said: (All from John 8, go check it out)

Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Jesus shows incredible grace, love and forgiveness here - but he also tells her to change her life. His grace and love compels change - she experiences Jesus, and her life is different because of that. I imagine people would have noticed the difference in her life after this encounter with Christ - it's a big challenge to us eh? How much do we live out the grace, love and forgiveness of Christ in our lives?

I think as Christians we need to walk this fine line really well, and so often we err to one side. We either demonise a certain sin as pure evil, and will not associate with people at all who have this problem. Or, we choose to ignore the sin problem, and almost live out the opposite idea of Romans 6:1 (we do keep on sinning, so that God's grace can increase). Which is not good.

Maybe we need to be more certain of what God would deem good and bad in our world today, but also need to learn to love like God love's more. I know we need to do the second one!

Also, just as a final aside - I'm not so sure that I agree with the statement that God gives us illnesses so we can be stronger in who we are and in Christ. I think all illnesses are a direct result of the Fall, and humanity disobeying God. I think God allows this to happen - God gave us free will to choose, and (as he is a just God) also allows the consequences of our decisions to occur. I'm not sure - and there's probably heaps smarter people who have written heaps more on this - but I don't think God gives illnesses as such.

Check out John 9 though - go read it. A man is blind, and Jesus disciples ask him - Jesus, why is this guy blind - cos he did something wrong, or cos his parents did something wrong?

They see his blindness as punishment as a result of disobeying God. But Jesus turns them away from this question - and points them towards Christ. He says that his man is blind so that God's work can be shown in his life.

That's where I agree with Courtney - I think illness is another way that Christ can be glorified. Where there is brokenness, there is always an opportunity for more of Christ's grace and love. And who knows? Maybe that is through a miracle, like in John 9. Maybe it's through a group of people loving and serving someone with illness. Maybe it's through the response of the person who is sick. But all of these point to a living Jesus, who is active and loving today.

[Richard G]

I just got back from California where this topic is so hot right now.

A bit of background: California recently made it illegal for gay people to marry (after earlier having made it legal). Then Barack Obama asked a Californian pastor, Rick Warren (you might remember him from such films as Forty Days of Purpose and Hawaiian Shirts I Have Loved) - who publicly opposed legalising gay marriage - to speak at his inauguration. There's a lot of mud being slung at Obama and Warren and, by extension, Christians.

Here's a really interesting letter written by Melissa Etheridge, a famous gay musician, about a conversation she had with Rick Warren:

www.huffingtonpost.com/melissa-etheridge/the-choice-is-ours-now_b_152947.html

It's a tricky issue. But I think the issue-beneath-the-issues is that the Church needs to learn how to love and embrace people, even when we may differ from them. And, on this particular issue, we've got a long ways to go...

[patches08]

I went to the link and read it, god works in some amazing ways. she definitely makes some good points in the end. even though I didnt like the first half of it, because she has expressed her/his emotions in a way to make us christians seem like bad people. which is her/his view I guess. (not sure if it is a male or female).
passionately, I do think that god created us so male and female are made to be together. but i dont think we should frown upon others that arent like that. they are still humans.